A mens healing centre would be unaffordable for the Ballarat Catholic diocese, according to Bishop Paul Bird.
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READ THE FULL INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT BELOW
Survivors came forward publicly this week demanding leadership and suggesting practical solutions, like a mens health centre that would make a fundamental difference to Ballarats concerning suicide rates, according to doctors.
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Bishop Bird said in an interview that while he supports the idea, its out of reach at the moment, likening it to setting up a hospital.
We have two hospitals in the diocese, St John of God in Ballarat and St John of God in Warrnambool, and they have both services at the hospital and outreach," he said.
So in that sense, I would feel that the Catholic Church is already helping mens health even though theres not a specific unit as there may be for womens health issues.
If there are other ways in which we can help mens health, then Im happy to see what we can do - I dont really see the diocese as being in a position, more or less, to set-up another hospital and keep a hospital running, we dont have those funds."
He reiterated that the diocese provides funding for counselling sessions, and other practical and financial support, to survivors upon referral from professionals.
This is separate to the National Redress Scheme and other compensation payments, he added.
Basically, on the recommendation of any professional person, whether its a counsellor or doctor, if they come to us and recommend some further treatment for anyone, were happy to fund that," he said.
I also recognise that ongoing need, which is why we have adopted the policy of being very open to ongoing help, basically without question, if its a professional person recommending ongoing help for a survivor, were ready to provide that funding, thats within our capabilities.
The idea of making Ballarat an integrated centre of healing, with other smaller services, as opposed to installing a health clinic, was also discussed.
I know our own Centacare has a good deal of integration with the many other organisations that provide social services, for example, so with that cooperation with the services in a city, there can be a general sense that the whole city would be a caring city, cooperating to offer care to those in need, Bishop Bird said, noting outreach to smaller, rural communities was also an important part of the plan.
- Affected by this story? Phone the Ballarat Centre Against Sexual Assault on 5320 3933, or the 24-hour crisis line on 1800 806 292. Lifeline is available on 13 11 14.
Full interview:
Q: This is an interview about Ballarat and your initial response to everything thats happened this week, so from your point of view, what is your initial response?
A: Id heard from a quite a few different people just in the course of this week, their feelings.
Summing up, one lady said Im feeling so sad, even with very mixed emotions I think, but the predominant emotion for her was sadness, so its possibly a mix of sadness for people in general, the victims who have suffered over the years, it might be just a general sense of heaviness in the community.
She and her friends see these as rather dark kind of day, with not much bright news, but depressing kind of news.
I think this lady represented quite a few people, and as she said herself, like many people I feel quite sad.
Id been sharing some of those feelings with people.
At Sunday Mass, I basically recognised that people that gather at Sunday Mass, and I acknowledge too, as I mentioned last week in an initial response, I think for people in Ballarat, where Cardinal Pell grew up and where he served for a few years, its taken as a particularly personal sadness.
Its a little bit like, we can hear of some problems overseas and they might not impact on us so much, but if we hear of wrongs and sufferings that people have had in our own neighbourhood, then it means much more, it has more of an impact.
I think thats why particularly in Ballarat, people feel the impact of the whole several years, of course - just behind us is five years of the Royal Commission, where issues of child abuse and the efforts to safeguard children have been in the news day-by-day.
The buildup of that has led to people being fairly solemn, or sombre, in many ways, and particularly the last week with the heavy news, and thats made things a little more sombre.
At the same time, the other side of it, people come to celebrate the mass at the weekend, and a lot of our prayers, rightly, are about thanksgiving for the gifts we have.
So theres a mix of feelings, people are sad about sad events, but theyre also in their faith, theyre strong, and recognising that in their lives and the lives of people, there are also gifts that theyve received."
Q: One of the things Ive been talking to survivors about, and this is coming from them, is that this crisis - which is continuing and is back in national or international focus at the moment - is that it provides a leadership opportunity for the church, it provides church leaders a chance to say, were done with all that, and this is what were doing.
Do you see it in a similar way? Do you see it as an opportunity for something to be done and for the church to take the lead, and to have their . Moving forward, start leading the way?
A: I dont know whether its about starting to lead the way, I feel the whole Victorian inquiry which is only six years ago now, and the Royal Commission, I do feel that members of the church have taken a lead through those years.
In all our parishes, for example, we have safeguarding officers.
I have met with quite a number of survivors over all those years, so I see it as not something thats starting from now, it has been started.
I do agree that its valuable if any leaders in the community, whether theyre church leaders or civic leaders, if they do give a lead for people to help people to see what good steps can be done.
I see them as two steps, theres one of support for those who have suffered, which weve been trying to do, and we have been providing not only direct redress or compensation for people, but ongoing counselling.
Basically, on the recommendation of any professional person, whether its a counsellor or doctor, if they come to us and recommend some further treatment for anyone, were happy to fund that.
We see it, in that indirect way, I suppose, that were continuing the support.
So thats the one side, support those and help along in their life those who have been hurt.
And the other side, which is also very important which the Royal Commission emphasised too, is to keep people safe now, and I think weve taken a lot of steps and Im hopeful people in our schools, in our parishes, are all very alert to safeguarding children nowadays because of the steps that have been taken over these past few years.
If anyone is able to, and wishes to make any proposals for further ways in which we can help the community along, Im very open to that."
Q: One of the things weve been discussing with survivors the last couple of days has been this idea of a healing centre, this is something Cardinal Pell said was a good idea in The Vatican, that he was prepared to support - I think that was the quote - and Father Zollner, who is the head of the child protection university department at The Vatican, and he came to Ballarat.
A: Yes, I met him here, I spent some time with him."
Q: This idea of a place for not just survivors but vulnerable people who might have been affected, because its a ripple effect, with a place for mental health support, or pathways to mental health support, and mens health generally - is that an idea that the diocese supports?
A: Certainly its an idea I support.
I met with people who some time back were floating the idea, and I said in whatever ways we can, we would support that.
I think one of the people speaking spoke about not simply a healing centre, but a centre of healing, so the whole community, you might say, is sensitive for the need for healing and support.
I feel our diocese has been promoting a centre of healing in practice, by supporting particularly counselling, ongoing counselling.
We have contributed quite substantial amounts, as well as the compensation payments, to that practical support for counselling.
Essentially, as I said, if theres any professional person who recommends to us support for someone with professional counselling or any other particular need they may have, then we are very ready, and we have helped people.
The kind of scale of a general mens health - it seems to be me that perhaps the diocese is able to be involved in that, but it sounded to me that people were talking about a government-dimension scheme.
Just as we have womens health centres, which are naturally great to have, but they would of the level of finance that only a government could do."
Q: So why couldnt the Catholic Church support it? Would it just be too much money?
A: I think youd be talking probably hundreds of millions of dollars, we dont have that."
Q: Even if its just for Ballarat, or if were talking a pilot or trial?
A: Yes, but if you speak about mens health, in general, its like setting up another hospital if its going to be treating any issues of mens health.
Already, of course, the Catholic Church in general, we have two hospitals in the diocese, St John of God in Ballarat and St John of God in Warrnambool, and they have both services at the hospital and outreach.
So in that sense, I would feel that the Catholic Church is already helping mens health even though theres not a specific unit as there may be for womens health issues.
Were doing that, but as we well know, health is an enormously expensive service, and it seems to me that the people who came were thinking of quite an expensive set-up, and then of course the salaries of any health professionals are quite large.
If the diocese can help - we are helping, as I see it, were helping by providing support for counselling.
If there are other ways in which we can help mens health, then Im happy to see what we can do.
I dont really see the diocese as being in a position more or less to set-up another hospital and keep a hospital running, we dont have those funds."
Q: Some of the other ideas were public memorials, days of remembrance - I am aware that Catholic Religious Australia has a day of remembrance they held on December 2 last year - another suggestion was suicide support teams, as people can feel very threatened if they say hello, my mental health plan says if Im feeling this way, I should phone an ambulance, and sometimes the police come and it can make things worse, sometimes, so the suggestion was have a team of people that can go out as supporters and say we are trained in this, in mental health first aid - those sorts of on-the-ground things.
I was having this discussion with John Crowley from St Patricks, and he said theyve had a program for the past 12 months where they use their database of Old Scholars and some Old Scholars volunteer their time or services, and survivors are linked to them - he used the example of dental work.
Is there scope for the church, or the diocese, to support these smaller but still very useful and demonstrable initiatives?
A: Ill tell you two things, you gave the example of dental work, we have supported, and are happy to support, any of the victims who have requested support in that regard.
In relation to mental health, we already have a structure within Centacare, which is a service of our diocese, which is quite often engaged in support for mental health issues.
Thats largely government-funded, like many of the social services, but also partly also diocesan funded.
That structure is there, its available for any mental health issues insofar as we have a number of people on staff there who would be focusing on that, whether relationship issues or mental health issues.
Its important that that be professionally done, so they would either be able to help with counselling themselves or referring to others that are more specialist in mental health help and assistance."
Q: Again, this is an interview about Ballarat, and something my editor said to ask - we just had the summit in The Vatican, (Australian representative) Archbishop Coleridge (from Brisbane) is taking quite strong positions on that, the Redress Scheme is up and running, and its early days at the moment and not everyones signed up and its beginning to build.
But, not much seems to be coming out of either initiative at the moment, so were wondering what can be achieved at a local level, in the parish, in the diocese, that cant be achieved with these national and international initiatives?
A: Id say what we are doing with the Redress Scheme, thats very much an Australian issue, and simply to say the diocese signed up as quickly as we could and weve had a number of cases brought to us - of course, its a government scheme, so simply, its a question of the government receiving claims and making the judgment, then we provide the funding - the government makes a judgment about a particular case.
Thats done on the diocesan level.
Parish-level, I suppose Ive often enough encouraged people of parishes to not only care for present safety of children, thats something very obvious and readily understandable for everybody, but if there are people in the parish who are still carrying some wounds from abuse - either directly, or their family members - Ive encouraged parishioners to offer personal support.
I suppose for financial support, theyd come to the diocese, but often for the personal support, thats from the people that you know in your local parish community.
Ive encouraged people, and weve had a few examples around different parishes, where theres been little groups of people whove specifically formed to offer support.
I think thats a very important element that personal support can be really vital, as well as the practical, financial support, the more formal counselling, but that personal support of friends is very important for us all, especially if weve gone through a traumatic time."
Q: In terms of the parishes, and the parishioners, we talked about sadness at the very beginning, but is there anger? Is there distrust? Are there people still coming to church that are feeling very uncomfortable, or have they just stopped coming?.
A: People, to me, show great faith.
Recently, there was that television panel (Q&A), and there was the Jewish leader who was talking about the main reason for going to church or synagogue is about your connection with God - so its ultimately not dependent on any leader in the synagogue or the church, its about the relationship with God and the community.
It seems to be that so many people have drawn on their deep faith to keep expressing their love and concern for the others in the community, and also their sense of closeness to God.
We know theyve been bitterly disappointed by a number of leaders in the church over a number of years, and thats continued, particularly with the Royal Commission and the subsequent, very recent events of Cardinal Pells conviction.
There is that sense of faith through all that difficult time persisting.
There may well be some who have ceased coming to a gathering of the community for their own reasons, and partly it may be because of the feeling of being let down by the sin that the church community
But I must say overall, my impression is one of admiration for people who have shown a very deep faith which transcends any disappointment or any sense of being let down by some of the leaders in the community, its a very personal faith they have with God and their readiness, actually, to keep supporting others in the community.
They feel that the coming to church is a connection with God in prayer, but its also expressing their contribution in support of the other members of the community.
To me, being very admirably perservering in their faith, we had very big crowds today for Ash Wednesday prayers, which is a special day for us to ask for mercy for ourselves, essentially, for any failings on our part, and also to pray for healing in the community and in the world.
People do continue to come, and I think they do so because of the deep faith they have."
Q: In the community more broadly, the Catholic Church, especially in Ballarat, has been a player, its an important part of the community, but in the past few years, has there been a lack of confidence in the church because of these disappointments in the leaders? Has there been less people being able to take the churchs positions on things seriously given everything that has been happening, and which has been revealed, and has ended up with convictions and prison time?
A: I think we might distinguish between questions of doctrines of the church and a sense of being able to draw on the services of the church.
I think the schools continue to be very well supported, and Centacare continues to be very busy with people looking for help in their lives, and in the parishes, people continue to gather Sunday by Sunday.
In the general community, it may well be that people are not familiar, or they may have different views on public morality issues, different from the general Christian and church views, but in a way I dont know that that takes away from that sense that members of the community in general can relate positively to Catholics.
Perhaps the distinction could be between the general image of the church, and the relationship with people in your street who are Catholics, or people who go to the same school that you know, or go to the Catholic hospital, or the local priest in your parish.
People might have a general sense of being let down by leaders in the church, but really, their experience could well be at the moment, theyre feeling a connection with their local community and with the current leaders in their parish, for example.
To think of the general community, I think the engagement of Catholics in the broader community, and all the issues that we face as a community, thats still strong, I think there is still that engagement, and from a church community point of view, there is a wish to be of service, and I think we feel that whatever criticism any church groups might face, they feel a sense of mission to continue to serve as well as they can, not to be put off from what you see as a good thing, to do a good thing in serving the community, even if you run into some criticism on some issues.
For example, we continue our schools, social services, our parish gatherings, because we believe theyre good things to contribute to the community."
Q: Going back a little bit to survivors and whats happening at the moment, Ive got your testimony to the Royal Commission, which is five years ago, and I thought itd be good to check in on that.
Youve mentioned in there youve met with survivors, and youve mentioned that today as well - how regularly are we talking? Is it a large group? Is it just people comfortable coming forward? How does that work?
A: Basically, there would have been one-on-one meetings with any survivors who wish to have a meeting.
It would be fewer now than it was a few years ago, particularly in the early days of the Royal Commission.
Two months ago I would have had my last meeting with a survivor who wished to have a meeting with the bishop, as a representative of the community.
Now, its not a very frequent meeting, but I see it as very important if the survivor wishes to have a meeting.
It can be a validation of the importance of their story just to have someone representing the Catholic community to listen and to express their sorrow for whats happened, and then to offer whatever help they may be seeking - that help may depend on their personal experiences and their wishes, there might be simply some further counselling, it might be, some might be saying they have come to the point where theyre getting along okay but they might need some assistance in another area.
Ive still been having a number of meetings, but its at the initiative, or at the request, of survivors.
There would be some who approach us for compensation, and we would arrange compensation through mediation, but who wouldnt want to meet with the bishop - but if they do, Im happy to do that."
Q: Similarly, the advisory group - Ive had a word with (Ballarat diocese professional standards coordinator) Michael Myers and he said theres women involved, theres laypeople involved, its not just heres what the priests think we should do, its a bit more consultative. How many times does that meet, and what sort of things are being discussed at the moment, five years after the Royal Commission?
A: Now, we meet every two months, initially, for the first three years - it was established in 2014 - we met monthly, and in that time, mostly it was drawing up policies for safeguarding, and maybe occasionally there was some discussion about how to respond to victims, but largely that was myself in consultation with the coordinator for professional standards so that we handled it in a more personal way.
But the policies, and procedures that schools and parishes and Centacare would adopt, these were spoken about at length in that panel to get them well and truly comprehensive.
In recent times, one of our main focuses is an upcoming audit in May, just making sure that whatever weve said on paper is actually happening in practice, thats the aim of the audit, so weve been trying to clarify and make as practical as possible for all the parishes, what they need to be doing to be fulfilling our policies particularly for safeguarding."
Q: Where to from here? Thats the next thing. Survivors have been saying to us week, weve been getting supported, some more than others, and some are finding theyre running into roadblocks, some are finding that, for example, with Medicare, people are assigned sessions and theyre getting to the end and cant get any more.
Hearing these things, and hearing directly from survivors - and youve met with them, you have an understanding - where can the church, or the diocese in Ballarat particularly, go from here? What sort of things are in the pipeline?
A: It might be good just to take the example you gave, lets say someones getting to the end of Medicare - if they were to approach us seeking funding for some further counselling, weve done exactly that.
Maybe people are not so much aware of that, but thats precisely what weve been doing for the past five years."
Q: So what exactly is the process? Do people just knock on the door.
A: No, a professional person recommends it for them"
Q: So its a referral?
A: Well, its a referral in the sense that a request, lets say from CASA (Ballarat Centre Against Sexual Assault), because weve tried to continue - weve had recent discussions with CASA to see how we can further assist, particularly, as basically with funding from the diocese, so that the survivor doesnt have to approach the diocese directly, they might be going to CASA and the CASA person contacts us and says they would recommend some further counselling, and were able to fund that.
That has been happening, but perhaps its not so widely known.
To answer the particular case that you raised, thats available to people.
Weve tried to make it professional in the sense of providing services which a professional person recommends.
The aim, of course, is to have real help for people, so we take the judgment of any professional person whos offering help, that htis particular assistance will be of real help to the person.
It might be a series of further counselling sessions.
Simply on their professional judgment, were happy to fund that - we dont decide what is going to be helpful for a person, but we rely on the advice of professionals."
Q: Two themes my colleague and I, doing these sorts of stories, is the first thing is that its urgent, with all the news at the moment, people are coming out of the woodwork and theres an urgent need -its been going on for many, many years, but theres an urgent need now.
A: Accentuated now.
Q: Exactly. And its also not just a one-off thing, this is an ongoing thing and there needs to be ongoing commitments, its not something where its like here is this, and this should do you, it should be an ongoing recognition, and recognition of the need for support, if not the support itself. Those are the two things I think that are coming through loudly and clearly.
In terms of that urgency and ongoing support that people are asking for, do you think the dioceses response has been appropriate?
A: I think thered be quite a few cases where we have responded to a case of urgent need, but Im sure with cases that weve - or the situation weve had in the last week or so where theres such a sense in some survivors of resurfacing of painful memories, for example, there could be many cases where people feel an urgent need for help and there are just not counsellors available, thats a sadness that I would feel we would be ready to do and we have been able to respond quickly to any urgent calls from basically counsellors for further funding for those that they believe would be helped with further assistance.
Sometimes there are those peaks of felt need, where the usual numbers of people who are assisting counsellors or other areas of professional help are just not able to cope all at once, so sadly you do get those delays, at a hospital or counselling service.
But I understand there are other, extra urgent times.
I also recognise that ongoing need, which is why we have adopted the policy of being very open to ongoing help, basically without question, if its a professional person recommending ongoing help for a survivor, were ready to provide that funding, thats within our capabilities.
As I mentioned earlier, I dont see that weve got the very large amount of funds that might be spoken of with the whole mens health service, but individual counselling, we do have funds available, we can provide for that as professional people recommend it to us for the people they are caring for."
Q: Some survivors have spoken about this centre of healing, as a building, but what would that look like to you, from your perspective, what would that look like?
A: From what people have spoken about, it sounds a bit like a clinic, its essentially providing medical or counselling services, thats what you find at neighbourhood clinics.
It might be that the added feature that people ahve spoken on is that it focuses on mens health, so it would be somewhat of a specialist clinic, but would still have a variety of professional areas offered.
Q: This is a healing centre, but a centre of healing, a town or city based approach to taking care of each other and looking after survivors, and producing a replicable model for other towns, cities, or dioceses - saying Ballarat was able to do this, Ballarat was the centre of healing, they did it first, and they did it best, and we can redo that model in Sale, or Warragul.
A: So we take the good points that Ballarat has done?
Q: Would that be something a centre of healing, instead of a healing centre
A: I see a key element of that, and a kind of sense of the whole city being a centre of healing, would be the cooperation between all the professional social services and medical people in the city.
I know our own Centacare has a good deal of integration with the many other organisations that provide social services, for example, so with that cooperation with the services in a city, there can be a general sense that the whole city would be a caring city, cooperating to offer care to those in need.
Thats broader than a particular clinic.
Another area that people have spoken about is some kind of retreat place, or retreat places, but maybe thats not so directly meeting an urgent need, its more of a long term place for reflection and tranquility, which is a blessing if people are feeling under pressure in their life.
But I would see that all of those services together would build up a strong sense of the whole city being caring.
One point I would make too, the diocese of Ballarat covers all of western Victoria, so another area that Centacare services have done, in some areas of the diocese, have provided general counselling, with the idea that under the general heading of counselling, local people who have suffered abuse may find an opportunity, without any particular fanfare, but to be able to bring their particular concerns in a local service.
Im having a meeting this afternoon with the Centacare director to see if we are able to extend some of those services we have had to other areas of the diocese.
Were wanting to make services available, particularly counselling services, in the more regional areas as well as in Ballarat itself."
Q: In terms of who will set this up, who will set the terms of this, do you think there is a role for the Catholic Church or the diocese to take a leadership role in this, say we get it, well atone for what weve done, this is what well do; is there a role for the church to take the lead in setting up this centre of healing, coordinating responses, or is there enough public confidence if the church did take up that role?
A: I would think the churchs position, as a large group in the community, is to take our part.
It may be something like a Ballarat city initiative - perhaps its more civic groups that can be more coordinating, as they are sometimes nowadays.
For example, you can have a forum on refugees or domestic violence, sponsored by the city, to which many different groups who are contributing will come.
It is possible, with ourselves, we have sponsored some forums on domestic violence, and weve provided a platform to which many different groups have contributed.
I would see the Catholic community as contributing to this, and not necessarily taking the lead in it, except that we certainly have been trying over these years to take the lead as far as what we have been doing is concerned.
Were happy to coordinate, or cooperate, as so far as we can coordinate - for example, if Centacare was able to coordinate with some other social services, weve got the readiness to do that.
If the local parish would coordinate with some other denominations within their parish and other civic groups in their parish, wed be happy to do that.
Either be the focal point, or join with others, with some other to take the lead.
I would see the Catholic community as wishing to help."
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